while disney did not name governor rhonda scientist as the reason that it decided to pull the plug, the announcement comes amid an escalating feud between the florida governor and disney over the company's opposition to the states education law known as don't say gay. it restricts in class discussion of gender and sexual orientation in florida public schools. despite desantis promoting and pushing for, and signing that law, today he blamed all of those things except himself. given disney's financial straits. he said, following market cap and declining stock price, it's unsurprising that disney would restructure the business operations and canceled and successful adventures. the reality here is that desantis has likely caused his own state more than 2000 high paying jobs. jobs that would be appreciated elsewhere, like california. governor gavin newsom today said that is turns out visit bigoted talk policies have

consequences. that's 2000-plus jobs being welcomed back with open arms to the golden state. a desantis presidential election announcement is expected next week. i'll see you tomorrow. now time for the last word with lawrence o'donnell. good evening, lawrence. the las>> the story you just rd could not be subtitled, it is hard out there for a republican, because when the party stands for absolutely nothing, what do you do next? it's not that hard to remember. when one of the things that they stood for was, sucking up to and protecting in every way the biggest employers in your state, and when you abandon everything that you used to think, what are you left with? you end up with stories like that. >> you end up with not going to disney world in announcing that you're going to run for president. ron desantis, enjoy that ride. >> alex, i've got a problem

little struggle through here in this program. it is similar to the problem that i have with putting the words fox and news anywhere near each other. if i do, i feel like i'm telling a lie. it's just not true. there is a congressional committee now where i cannot bring myself to say the name of the committee and i have to report on it tonight. >> i bet i know each committee you're talking about. >> don't say it, i can't take it. >> it is maybe chaired by somebody call -- >> it's fair to call him the jordan committee. the jim jordan committee, the closest i can come to. i simply can't use the name of the committee. i'll explain why in this segment as i report on the committee, while i dare not say his name. >> and don't forget, lawrence, i know you love the

parliamentarian details of the u.s. congress, subcommittee. >> technically a subcommittee. not even an actual committee, but a subcommittee. >> which is all the weird, or as things go. >> i'm looking forward to your creative nomenclature. >> i have to work on this one. thank, you alex. >> good luck. by. >> the name of congressional committees, it used to be the one thing that no member of congress was lying about. the first committee, establishing the house of representatives in 1789 was the ways and means committee. that remains the name of that committee. it's archaic sounding language now, but it was very clear in 1789 that the ways and means committee would provide the ways and means for the government to do what it had to do.

in other words, it would have to raise the money. over the next couple of decades, washington language evolved to a level of clarity that makes perfect and obvious sense today. in eight -- the senate created a finance committee. the finance committee in the senate does exactly what the ways and means committee in the house does, it raises the money through taxation and tariffs to pay for the government. the finance committee does what it sounds like it does. the foreign relations committee has jurisdiction over exactly what it sounds like. the veteran affairs committee sent established in 1970 couldn't be more clear. in this jurisdiction. it is right there in the title of the committee, as it is with virtually every other committee. it went until republicans it

today's representative thought of a new committee, which alex correctly point out is actually a subcommittee, to be run by rampant right-wing election denying relentless trump echoing jim jordan. when you lie as much as donald trump and jim jordan, you are going to lie about the new house committee that you create. you are going to put the lie right there in the name of the committee, and that's why on this program, i avoid in every way possible, saying the name of that committee. that is jim jordan trying to force me to use his words, which are a lie in describing the work of that committee. i don't know that problem with any other congressional committee in history because committee names were never ally

until now. >> senator daniel patrick moynahan used to use the phrase semantic infiltration to describe this phenomenon. it's when you force your opponent to use your language, and describe something. that's why i said i never want to use the word fox and news beside each other, and rupert murdoch knew that he could force the entire news industry take all what he was doing news when he created a television propaganda channel and called it news. if you use the word fox and news beside each other, you are falling victim to rupert murdoch's semantic infiltration of your brain. and everybody in the news business doesn't. rupert murdoch owns that cell of their brains, and forces them to call the poison that he spews, news.

in a deal that kevin mccarthy made with republicans that are even more fanatical than he, is in order to get their votes to make them speaker. he agreed to make a committee whose title is a lie. the committees claim is that it would investigate the way that government, and especially the investigative powers of government, have been used yunnan fairways. i would be happy to cheer on a congressional committee like that, it for the first time in the history of the congress, for example, they would take an interest in the ultimate governmental power. the power of government to kill, and how that bite me used unfairly. if the committee were to investigate how police officers, and including federal law enforcement officers, in the street can unfairly become judge, jury, and executioner in one moment and kill unarmed

people, particularly unarmed black man in the street, like michael brown and george floyd. and thousands of others during my lifetime. that is a version of that committee that i can support and be interested in. i'm sure that many other people can fairly supportive committee that is fairly trying to investigate. governmental power can be used unfairly. the jim jordan committee was inventing exclusively to pretend to investigate what they claim is investigative unfairness against republicans, and especially the republicans named trump by federal law enforcement officials and national security officials. they have not been able to come up with one day of two testimony demonstrating anything an affair in the federal investigative process. surely there are more unfair

things in the federal investigative process. they are not necessarily partisan things. those things or have no interest to the republican liars, and they're all liars on that committee, because the very first lie that they tell every time that committee meets, is the lie that they tell about the purpose of the committee, which they have written into the very title of the committee. the only committee in congressional history whose name is a lie, whose name is, so far, a very successful execution of semantic infiltration. everyone else in the news media uses the name of this committee as if it's the legitimate name of a congressional committee, and as if it reveals something about what the committee actually does. instead of realizing that the mere hundreds of the name of the committee is a

participation in the lie that they committees existence represents. today, jim jordan presented three former fbi agents. these are former fbi agents for a reason. they've had their security clearances revoked, they violated the most elementary rules of the fbi in some cases. in a letter from the fbi to jim jordan, the fbi said that they are, quote, allegiance to the united states was in doubt. that, of course, is true of jim jordan. his allegiance to the united states is in there. he tried to overturn the last presidential election illegally. he's only known allegiance is to donald trump and his own power. jim jordan claimed that the former fbi agents were whistleblowers, but balloon new whistles today. whistleblowers are actually now in official status obtainable by law in washington. these three don't qualify.

they do qualify for the description of new disgruntled former employees. mark's allies top secret security clearance was revoked, he had expressed sympathy for persons or organizations that advocate, threaten, or use the force of violence, the fbi letter to jordan. the security clearance was revoked after issues last summer to take part in an arrest of a january 6th suspect. according to the fbi, letter he espoused an alternative narrative about the events of the u.s. capitol. that was the fbi is freezing. he espoused the narrative during his communications with his supervisors, about refusing to participate in that arrest. the fbi letter also noted that in september of 2022, mr. friend downloaded documents from fbi computer systems to an unauthorized removable flash arrive. and it is an excellent reason

to be a former fbi agent. jim jordan, he makes up his own rules as he goes along. for the first time in congressional history, he has refused to share interviewed transcripts of witnesses with every member of the committee. >> i'm not aware that you're able to withhold information from the minority that we would need to be used to prepare for -- when >> it comes to whistleblowers, you're not. i would remind everyone, look, when it comes to whistleblowers, -- >> it's not right. >> it is shocking -- >> that's not right. you say so much about the whistleblower -- >> the gentleman from new york -- >> when you are part of the investigation with an anonymous whistleblower. when it comes to whistleblowers, you are not entitled to it. that is a discretion of mr. allen. >> these individuals have to been determined not to be whistleblowers. these are whistleblowers. they have been determined by the agency not to be whistleblowers. are you deciding that they are

whistleblowers? >> yes, the law decided that -- >> the law has not determined that there were whistleblowers. >> congressman dan goldman cited the rules. the chairman jordan had clearly not known exist. >> the point of order is why does rule 11 clause two, subsection he won a not apply to this subcommittee? i can read for you, each committee shall keep a complete record of all committee action, which shall include, in the case of a meeting or hearing transcripts, a substantially verbatim account of remarks. actually made during the preceding, the subject only to some technical things. such records should be the property of the house, and each member, delegate, and the resident commissioner shall have access there to. why does that not apply? where is the whistleblower exception in the rules of congress? that says that that does not exist. >> it's a prerogative of the committee to decide. >> no it's, not as the rules of the house. >> we have that whistleblower

testimony, the whistleblower does not wish that to me made -- >> the whistleblower doesn't make committee rules. >> the senior ranking democrat on the committee says -- who will join us in a moment, assessed the hearing this way. >> less than two months ago, former president trump, facing mounting investigations into his many alleged crimes, declared that quote, republicans in congress should defined the doj and the fbi until they can come to their senses. we all know that when trump says jump, the republicans in the house say, how high? here we are. i'm police week, watching house republicans jump to lay the foundation to defund law enforcement. our colleagues on the far-right are on the mission to attack, discredit, and ultimately dismantled the fbi. this is find the police on

steroids. as part of the mission, our colleagues have brought in these former agents, men who lost their security clearances because they were a threat to our national security. who, out of malice or ignorance, or both, have put partisan agenda above the oath that they swore to serve this country and protect its national security. my republican colleagues are not here representing their constituents, not my constituents, they are representing donald trump. they're acting -- this defense attorney, the campaign operative, and everything in between. >> this committee, the select committee is a clearinghouse for testing conspiracy theories for donald trump to use in the 2024 presidential campaign. what is clear from these hearings is the donald trump knows just how i do, that the

danger to him in his maga movement is the rule of law. >> leading off the discussion tonight's delegate stacey plaskett, who represents the virgin islands in the house of representatives. first of all, thank you for your service on this committee. we can all see how extremely difficult it is. it's also so important for the democrats to be on that committee. and they can counter the shear madness it is coming from the republican side. what was the most incriminating thing, if i can use that term, that you heard from any of these former fbi agents today. >> thanks for that. i have to say that leader jeffries, i think he's done a tremendous job, an assembly democrats of the select committee, for the

weaponization of government, it's not on the weaponize -- but it's to weaponize the government. and really be truthsayer's. i'm just really grateful to each one of them for their service and ability for us to work as a team and constantly be the truth squad. what i can say is that is mostly concerning was the fact that my republican colleagues, who are so intent on pushing these individuals as actually heroes, and never, if you look through the transcript, lawrence, of the hearing, they didn't go into details as to what these individuals actually did to have their security clearances review removed. if they did, we would find that these are individuals that shouldn't have any legitimacy with the fbi. should not be responsible with law enforcement officers at the highest level. it is the thing that the republicans do not say, it's

the things that they hide that americans should be concerned about. >> this moment, i side about not sharing the transcripts with you, it's hard for me for that not to be shocking, but when you're kind of steeped in both the practice and actual rules, the rules of committees, as congressman goldman was explaining the, it's a stunning to see them do this, and it's been plenty of partisan tension in the history of the congress. never, ever, ever did one party think that we don't have to give the other members of this committee the same material that we have. >> correct. what we've seen now, the rules don't apply. donald trump's lead a movement, where rules don't apply to them. just as you said, the institution keeps its focus, stays cohesive because when you

are in the minority, or when you're in the majority even, thinking i should apply these rules this way, because i don't want them, when the other side has been the majority, for them to do that to me. what i do think we have seen across the board, every instance, the republicans do not believe the rules apply to them. lawrence, you said it in the beginning. when you're talking in your monologue, i thought it was brilliant. republicans aren't interested in the fbi's allegations against them, breaking into people's homes. they're not interested when law enforcement kills people in their home like breonna taylor. or they stop young men like orlando castile, or brown people, very imposing rules on people because they have different religions. they've only become concerned with what they believe the fbi is doing when it affects them. their agenda, their political

agendas. >> delegate stacey plaskett, thanks for joining us on this night. thank you very much for your continued labor in that committee. >> thank you. >> coming up, with some house republicans now objecting to any more negotiations with president biden over the debt ceiling, because the negotiations might actually get somewhere, the group of prominent senate democrats is now urging president biden to ignore the demands of republicans. and use the presidents constitutional power to raise the debt ceiling on his own if congress fails to do it, one of the senators is joining us next. next. when moderate to severe ulcerative colitis keeps flaring, put it in check with rinvoq,

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the next generation 10g network. get started for just $49 a month. and ask about an $800 prepaid card. >> the wisest strategic view of comcast business. powering possibilities™. the debt ceiling standoff was issued by congresswoman alexandria coat -- saying here's the deal,

mccarthy doesn't have anywhere near the votes for a deal, and therefore cannot negotiate the debt ceiling. you have 218 votes, gop has maybe 150. they will need anywhere from 50 to 100 house democrats to pass anything. democrats have 213 votes for a clean bill, and it just need to pick up five. we got a preview of this during mccarthy's disaster of speaker vote in january. he doesn't know how many votes he has on what. that's what makes this negotiating rudderless. how do you deal with somebody that can't deliver a passage? a clean bill needs five. he can pass without democrats. today, republicans changed their positions on negotiations. they've been demanding negotiations of president biden over a budget agreement they could then include a increase on the debt ceiling. now, the president biden and his staff has begun the negotiating, dozens of republican house members are

demanding that the renegotiation stop immediately. they demanded that the negotiation stop on the very same day that kevin mccarthy said, we are not there, we have not agreed to anything yet. see the path that we can come to an agreement. kevin mccarthy told reporters that there could be an agreement this weekend. as congressman alexandria ocasio-cortez points out, who discovered mccarthy represent in the negotiations? dozens of republicans announced today that they will not vote for anything that comes out of those negotiations. they're insisting that the only way to increase the debt ceiling is for the senate to vote on the package of massive spending cuts that republicans passed in the house in april. in the senate today, hugely important development. for the first time in history, a group of senators is urging the president to ignore congressional action on the

debt ceiling and use his presidential power to raise the debt ceiling himself. 11 democratic senators, including the chair, bernie sanders, along with senator elizabeth warren, told the president that we write to urgently request you prepared to exercise your authority under the 14th amendment to the constitution, which clearly states, the validity of the public debt of the united states shall not be questions. joining us, no democratic senator of massachusetts, a sigh or of that letter to the president, senator markey, you are the first senators to ever say this to a president of the united states. the debt ceiling has been around for almost 100 years. it is never come to this before. what brought you to the point where you are urging the president to, in effect, just ignore congress and go ahead himself? >> it's pretty clear. speaker mccarthy's tenor to the

most right wing, radical, conservative members of his caucus. he can't get the deal that does not, in fact, result in absolutely unconscionable cuts to programs that affect the most vulnerable in our society. we just can't, as a country, allow for something that is unconstitutional, to be used by these radical right-wing us. that's a way of extracting concessions, time and time again at this critical debt ceiling moment in our history. when donald trump was president, the deficit, the debt went up eight trillion dollars. huge increases in defense spending, trillions of dollars in tax breaks for the rich, four billionaires and millionaires. they didn't care at all. what's joe biden gets in, the

clock is out, the tsa said. they want to shut down the government if they don't get these cuts for who? billionaires, the defense budget? no, it's for the poorest in our society. the united states constitution, of article 14, says quite clearly that the validity of the public debt has authorized by law shall not be questioned. as authorized by law means all of the bills that have already passed. they're already the law. you've already gone out with your credit card and bought all of this stuff. now the ballots arrived in the constitution says that you must pay it. i think that this might be just the right moment to once and for all, stop this nonsense. let's just invoke the 14th event, and never again have this crazy situation where the most right radical elements are able to hold our economy and the global economy hostage. well >> let's listen one of

your constituents that has something to say about this. one of your constituents in cambridge, massachusetts, harvard law professor, laurence tribe. >> the real question is not what powers just the president has, it's what duties the president has. does the president have a duty to execute all of the laws of the united states? the ones that congress passed, telling him to spend money. he does have that duty. >> senator, i have to say, that use of the professors focus on duty really sharp and my ability to see this point the way that he's making. >> lawrence tribe, as usually is right on the money. he's still beating constitutional experts in our country. the 14th amendment is very clear. if we were having a reasonable negotiation with the republicans, if there is a way

where both sides were coming to the table, if the tax breaks for millionaires and billionaires were a pot of this discussion. we probably wouldn't be having this discussion. none of those things are happening. as a result, maybe it's to clarify historical moments, where we look back at the wisdom of that post civil war reconstruction era of congress, when they enshrines into the conversation the requirements that the american government pay its bills. that they are valid, they should not be questioned. i would say that it's not something that comes easily, as a political process, but i think that kevin mccarthy will not have the leeway, i agree with alexandria ocasio-cortez. i think it's going to be tied, and if they are, and we're heading into the fault, is one in short uncertain way out. that's invoking the 14th

amendment. >> massachusetts senator, thank you very much for joining us tonight. >> great to be with you, thank you. >> coming up, the much ball adjust supreme court of the united states has suffered the most corruption in the headlines about, it more than it's ever had in its history in the last month. thanks to clarence thomas and other republican appointed members of the supreme court. the courts claims of impartiality have collapsed in a wave of decisions based on republican talking points instead of jurisprudence. it didn't happen overnight, that's next. ht that's next. oh booking.com, ♪ i'm going to somewhere, anywhere. ♪ ♪ a beach house, a treehouse, ♪ ♪ honestly i don't care ♪

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facts without ever footing the facts together in a way that reveals the big picture, talking about myself there of course. i can probably name most or all of the supreme court justices appointed in my adulthood, but it wasn't until sunday when i saw this shocking tweet by our next guest, when i realized how far away from basic political violence that the supreme court has moved. on sunday, steve vladeck tweeted, 54 years ago today, may 14th, 1969, was the last day on which a majority of

supreme court justices had been appointed by democratic president. the next 11 appointments were by republican presidents. 11 in a row. 16 of the last 21 appointments to the supreme court have been by republican presidents. the republican court packing tonight begin with donald trump and mitch mcconnell, but took it to a new level. now most republican members of the mcconnell senate have effectively taken position that no democratic presidents should ever be allowed to appoint a supreme court justice. joining us now is steven lad, a law professor at the university of texas in austin, the author of the new book, the shadow docket. how the supreme court uses stealth rulings to amass power and undermine the republic. professor, thank you very much for joining us tonight.

i am wondering how the development of the shadow docket tracks with the republican takeover of the supreme court. >> lawrence, it's great to be with you. i actually think that it's an iterative process, where it was not because of the rising republican ascendancy of the supreme court that we saw the justices rely on, unsigned, unexplained rulings, the heart of the shadow docket so affton. but there is certainly those correlations there, where you see the court become more comfortable using this particular means of decision-making, and especially in 2018 when justice kavanaugh replace justice anthony kennedy. and then again in 2020 when justice barrett replaced ginsburg. ginsburg had been there for a while, but now that there is this very reliable, consistent conservative majority, a lot of the previous limits, whether

they were norms, whether they were legal principles, that really kept the court from using these rulings the way that they have in the last five or six years. and it's gone by the wayside. >> this shadowy way of operating in their actual duties, it seems to have a mirror in their approach to ethics on the supreme court, which is also something that's going on, violations of which are going on in the shadows that we have now discovered. >> -- lawrence, in some respects, it's symptoms of the same disease. one of the things that the book tries to do is introducing folks that might not be as familiar with the history of the supreme court, and how they can get from then entail today, an institution that for much of its first hundred and 25, hundred and 50 years, was much weaker, was much more accountable to congress, and we saw, really throughout the 19th century and early part of the 20th century, congress

repeatedly pulling all of these levers as a means of exercising control over the court, as a means of keeping the justices from going too far out of line. lawrence, i think that the ethics issues we've seen recently, and also the rise of all of these unsigned, unexplained orders, it's both reflections of a court that just feels increasingly unaccountable, increasingly not beholden to the page political branches, increasingly unafraid that that misbehavior, whether it's on the docket or off the dock, it is going to provoke any pushback or consequences. >> what are some of the levers that congress had used in the past? one of the only examples i can think of in my very immature history of this is franklin roosevelt's proposing an expansion of the court, which wasn't at all popular even within his own party, and vice president was opposed to it. there is a historical reading of that that says that yes, he proposed expanding the supreme

court, didn't get anywhere. the supreme court then started ruling in his favor, in the kinds of cases where they had been ruling against him, which is what provokes him to suggest expanding the supreme court. >> lawrence, i think you're exactly right that the 1937 episode was an example of political pressure pushing the court to blank. if we want more concrete examples of those things that congress did, 1802, going a bit far back, congress actually prevented the supreme court from sitting the entire year because the jeffersonians, democratic republicans were mad at the federalists, they installed a lot of justices right before getting booted out of office. there is a famous case after the civil war where the court was about to rule on the legality of military reconstruction in the south, and where congress after the argument says, no you're not, we're taking away the jurisdiction. lawrence, as you might remember for most of the 19th century, congress forced the justices to

go right around the circuits for as much as six months of the year. initially not everything then reminding them who's boss. in 1964, when congress had a pretty substantial pay raise for most federal officials, and including federal judges. the justices actually got much less of a pay raise because congress has reflected its dissatisfaction with how the court had ruled in recent cases. there were other examples but for most of our history, there is red levers that congress could pull, not necessarily to overrule the court, that's the course job, not necessarily to prevent the court from asserting control in the system, but as madison wrote in federals 51, ambition must be made to counteract ambition. to counteract the ambition of the justices. i think that the big part of where we were today, nobody in congress is there to counteract. >> professor, i could listen to this all night.

thanks very much for joining us tonight, we really appreciate it. stephen blatnik, important new book is the shadow docket. coming up, why do donald trump's former lawyer's turn against him. a former trump criminal defense lawyer now says that donald trump is going to jail. that's next. that's next. it's too expensive. use priceline, they've got deals no one else has. what about work? i got you. looking great you guys! ♪ go to your happy price ♪ ♪ priceline ♪ family is just very important. she's my sister and, we depend on each other a lot. she's the rock of the family. she's the person who holds everything together. ♪♪ it's a battle, you know i'm going to be there. keytruda and chemotherapy meant treating my cancer with two different types of medicine.

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strangest group of lawyers in american legal history. their job is to publicly support insupportable lies until they just can't. they own eventually leave donald trump, including the ones that served him in government. after they leave, none of them have a good word to say about donald trump. michael cohen went from lying to donald trump to exposing his lies when he pleaded guilty to conspiring with donald trump in a criminal conspiracy to deliver $130,000 in the hush money payments to stormy daniels in the last weeks of the 2016 presidential election. william barr went from wildly mischaracterizing the mueller report for donald trump, to now offering no defense at all to the accusation that donald trump, through rudolph giuliani, selling pardons for 1 million

dollars, and splitting the profits. >> i'll ask you this, a 70-page complaint filed in the state court of new york on monday, so many that work for rudy giuliani who alleges that only sexual assault and harassment, but that she has evidence that he tried to sell pardons for $2 million apiece. he and president trump would split. do you think that's possible? >> i'm skeptical about that. i don't think that rudy giuliani would do then. i hope that he wouldn't. i don't know. >> i don't know? remember when william barr worked for donald trump? remember what he would've said about an accusation like that? back then? now, he just doesn't know. maybe donald trump was selling pardons for $2 million, spending the money with rudy giuliani. william barr just doesn't know.

one of the lawyers they worked for donald trump's criminal defense during the mueller investigation, ty cobb, now thinks that donald trump is going to jail. . >> i think this is i doxxing and t crossing, i think this case is ready to go. trump could really be right that he could be classified, saying stuff between foot massages, but three ideas that is just not the truth. i think it's the obstruction case is a type case and i think he'll be going to jail. the feds are coming and i think they're coming fast. >> donald trump's former criminal defense lawyer doesn't talk at predictions are donald trump going to jail, he's now publicly offering a special prosecutor jack smith advice on how to charge donald trump. >> i think that there is a possibility did the obstruction

case might be broadened to go ahead and include the espionage act accounts, and the possession, illegal possession of the classified documents. given the extent that, and solely because of the fact that trump keeps lying about what the law is. they may decide that it's important for the country, you don't need that to prove the obstruction. >> joining us now, harry lippman, former u.s. attorney and deputy assistant attorney general. he's a senior legal affairs columnist for the los angeles times. harry, i'd never seen anything like it. i just have to say, here is somebody who was working to save donald trump from special prosecutor robert mueller, and he now goes on tv to give

advice to special prosecutor jack smith about exactly how to charge donald trump. >> i haven't either. i don't know of anyone that has. there are a couple of points in play it seems like, one is the body counts of these trump lawyers, long and very bruised, because you judge them terribly. doesn't pay them, and delight, but when you're a trump lawyer, you have to take very ridiculous positions that are a body blow to your own personal reputation to buttigieg would snowbird footloose grips. you want to say, i'm not so crazy, i'm reasonable. for a former criminal defense lawyer to be saying, hey, he's going to jail, and by the, way this would be a good strategy for doing in. it's phenomenal. >> it is apparently representing donald trump as a lawyer, it is not in any way

inspire affection for donald trump based on what we have seen so far. what do you make of what he was actually saying about that case? >> he has just been an outsider with an opinion like anyone else, but i agree with his opinion, the feds are coming, and they are coming fast. we have a revelation today that there were 16 documents coming from the archives, and to me, they're just cumulative. i agree with this quote about dotting i's, crossing t's, smith by now has a very big wealth of evidence, and of course trump can't just declassify. he was told repeatedly that he cousin. by the, way as he always does when he opens his mouth, he got himself into more trouble in the cnn town hall when he said that i took them and could declassify them when i was at the white house. we didn't know that there is not that strong proof. that he had been the actor there. i had thought right now that it's just bigger and bigger, and the more you think about these revelations, it just

becomes increasingly difficult to contemplate that smith would not walk away. at this point, it almost seems inconceivable that if he doesn't work in a way that means he recommends charges. if he recommends charges he will certainly agree with them. looking at federal charges against the former president that carry a lot of jail time. >> just a quick word on timetable, whenever it seems like, if it seems like it might be complete on the documents of education, there is a new report of a new element of the investigation like the 16 records being sent just now, basically from the archives to jack smith. >> it is really true, and i thought also that it was kind of complete, but smith is being very methodical. when we say we're in the endgame, we don't just know how long the endgame will be. it is correct that it is perilous to predict but a matter of days, it's coming. >> harry lippman, thanks for coming, we always appreciate.

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