“I don’t want my first job to be when I’m 70,” laughs Jermain Defoe.
It’s a joke, but not really.
There’s frustration behind it. Anxiety. And the sense that 13 months after he called time on a 22-year playing career, he might be embarking on an even tougher battle.
“When I look at the numbers of black coaches in the game, like 4.4 per cent, that’s the only thing that makes me think, ‘Am I wasting my time?’,” he says, the exasperation clear in his voice.
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“Why am I any different to Sol Campbell, Andy Cole, Dwight Yorke, Ian Wright, Les Ferdinand, John Barnes? Why am I any different to these players and legends that I looked up to as a kid? Because at some stage, they would have been in my position thinking, ‘I’ll do my badges and get an opportunity because I’ve played at the top of the game’. But it’s not happened for them.”
The Athletic’s plan was to speak to 40-year-old Defoe about his transition from player to coach, a journey he started after retiring in March 2022. He left his playing career behind and began a role in Tottenham Hotspur’s academy, supporting the under-18s manager Stuart Lewis, getting a taste of what life is like as a football coach.
“The transition has been quite smooth because I knew about the Tottenham thing waiting for me,” says Defoe. “But it’s still been difficult because when you’ve been playing for 22 years and all of a sudden you get up and you’re not getting that feeling, not getting that buzz… I’m still putting my boots on and I’m coaching, which is obviously the nearest thing you get to playing, but you can’t replicate that feeling of walking out the tunnel on a Saturday afternoon. It’s been tough.”
After playing “800-odd games” — his calculation — Defoe says retiring was “probably the hardest thing” he’s ever had to do. What does he miss about it?
“Everything,” he says. “The changing rooms on a day-to-day (basis), preparing for games, having that focus, and scoring goals — there’s no better feeling. It’s something that you just cannot describe. Something I’ve always loved doing. Something I craved throughout my career. Something I always wanted to master. I didn’t want to just be good at it: I wanted to master it.
“When you finish playing it’s like, ‘OK, when am I going to get that buzz again, hear that noise?’. I miss everything about it.”
He says he retired, aged 39, for several reasons. A few months earlier, he had left Rangers on a high, having helped deliver what he calls “one of the most important league titles in the club’s history”. His return to Sunderland on a short-term contract was an emotional one. He’d enjoyed two special years and had formed the closest of bonds with six-year-old Sunderland fan Bradley Lowery, who died of neuroblastoma (a rare type of cancer) in 2017.
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But Defoe’s return wasn’t the one he’d hoped for. “Before I went back to Sunderland, I hadn’t played for about eight weeks, so I wasn’t match-fit. I was trying to get up to speed but it was quite difficult. When you’re not playing and you’re just training it becomes harder. I was frustrated because I was told I was going to play and try to help the team get promoted, which they did anyway. They didn’t need me, to be honest. But it just wasn’t happening. I wasn’t playing.
“And I felt like I was blocking the path for the young forwards at the club coming through just by being there. It wasn’t about the money; the contract was just a basic one. I just wanted to go back and play football until the end of the season and then see what happens. Other clubs offered me two-year contracts, but I was like, ‘Nah, I want to go back to Sunderland and probably just finish there’. But when I wasn’t playing and my body was like… my back, my Achilles, hamstrings were playing up. I thought it was the right time to retire.”
Defoe enjoyed talking to younger forwards at Sunderland and Rangers, taking them through drills and sessions he felt had helped him to become so prolific. It came naturally to him. He enjoyed it. When the COVID-19 pandemic hit Scotland, Defoe started getting his coaching badges. He has now completed his UEFA B Licence and is starting his A and Pro Licence together.
As a youth player at West Ham, he would eat his lunch as fast as possible so that he could go to the indoor hall on his own and practise finishing. Now, he’s trying to elicit that same passion and dedication from others. On his podcast, Outside the Box, Defoe has documented his move into coaching. In one episode, he even revealed he knows who he wants to be his assistant when the time comes. But what kind of manager does he see himself becoming?
“You’d be strict,” he says. “But I just want my players to understand how fortunate they are to be in a position to come to training every day. They should come to training and enjoy it with a smile on their faces and then take that into the game on a weekend.
“And I would always want to train with intensity. Don’t waste a training session, because the reason you train is to get better, even if it’s one per cent. That’s how I always approached it — every day enjoy yourself, work hard and just make sure you’re ready for the games.”
The managers who got the best out of him as a player were those who connected with him on a personal level, as well as a football one; the ones who were honest and approachable, someone he could talk to about anything.
“It’s not just about coaching, it’s about managing people,” he says. “Sam Allardyce, Harry Redknapp, even Gareth Southgate — all these kinds of managers that manage people are the best managers, and the ones that I’ve always scored a lot of goals for. They never complicated anything. It was: ‘Go out and express yourself. Work hard. Get your goals. You’re in the team for a reason, go and do what you’re good at. Be Jermain Defoe, that’s it. Don’t change anything. Just be you’.”
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Redknapp is something of a mentor for Defoe. In one of his podcast episodes, Defoe visits his former manager (Defoe played for Redknapp at West Ham United, Portsmouth and Tottenham) at his south coast home to quiz him about dealing with the pressures of management.
“I’m not sure it’s worth it, J,” says Redknapp, who retired from management in 2017. “I’m much happier now.”
How does that make Defoe feel? “I know what I’m getting into. I know at some stage I’m going to get sacked, that it’s going to be tough. It’s a test of your character, no different to when I was a player. That doesn’t really bother me. The only thing that bothers me is the lack of opportunities black managers get.”
In a report released last month, the Black Football Partnership (BFP), an organisation of present and former black players, published its annual review of the professional game in England and Wales. It revealed that the number of management-related positions held by black employees had risen from 49 individuals out of 1,338 (3.7 per cent) in 2022 to 57 individuals out of 1,304 (4.4 per cent) in 2023. (It was compiled before Patrick Vieira, who spoke of being troubled by the lack of black managers, and Paul Ince lost their jobs at Crystal Palace and Reading.)
One of the report’s main conclusions was that the traditional career ladder for former players is missing a few essential rungs for black former players. “The traditional route for former players to earn their managerial stripes is to start at the bottom of the football pyramid, build a CV and move up the leagues,” said the BFP in a statement. “However, for black former players, the hiring rate at League Two is worse than any other league, making career progression all the more difficult.”
It’s something Defoe cannot ignore. He doesn’t expect to be able to secure a Premier League job straight away. But if the opportunities are so scarce further down the pyramid, where will the openings come from?
“I’m not saying I want a job because I’m black and black players don’t get an opportunity. No, I want a job because I’m good enough. Give me the same opportunity. For instance, Scott Parker was at Spurs as the under-18s’ main coach, left there after a year and got the Fulham job. Why can’t something like that happen to me?
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“Steven Gerrard, Frank Lampard, Wayne Rooney… there are loads of names. I just want the same opportunity, and then if you fail it’s like, ‘At least I’ve been given the opportunity’.”
It’s not just at management level that Defoe sees the need for change. “There are different roles at a football club: board level, admin roles. You don’t see many black faces. Even the England women’s team.” (Of a 23-strong squad at the Euros last summer, the Lionesses had three black or mixed-race players.)
“When I look at the England team… I’m close friends with Fran Kirby, Beth Mead. I love these girls and what they’ve achieved. I remember watching the (Euros) final on my phone at a family barbecue and I was so anxious because I wanted the girls to win so bad.
“I have a lot of family members, girls in the family that play football. And I think, ‘Wow, imagine me sitting there watching you play for England. How would that make me feel?’. But are the FA looking in the right areas? I just don’t know.”
At the grassroots and academy levels, Defoe says representation is better, but it doesn’t translate to first-team coaching and management opportunities.
“It’s frustrating. Sometimes it winds me up even talking about it. I speak to the likes of Troy Townsend (Head of Player Engagement at anti-discrimination body Kick It Out), and you feel like with all the hard work that he’s done, it’s got to count for something. But when I speak to him he says, ‘JD, this has been going on since 1992 and if you ask me now, how long do I think we’ve still got to go in terms of changes…’. He said from 1992 to now, that’s how long he believes we’ve still got to go. But I don’t want my first job to be when I’m 70.”
He’s laughing, but again it’s not really funny.
“All I can do really is try and use my platform and have the conversation, talk about it,” he says. “Because at some stage it has to change. And then who knows, I could be managing in the Premier League, one day.”
(Top photo: BBC Radio 5)
