Mine is floriferous now in semi-shade -- if it is the same as Jacques Cartier. It does take some time for them to get going.

I'm glad to hear that, Monarda! I never know what name she ought to go by. I purchased her as Jacques Cartier, but read I probably should use MB. I still actually think of her as Jacques Cartier, though. All my other roses seem to be infested with every bug on the face of the earth, but somehow she remains perfectly clean. I wonder why? Lisa

What a pretty bloom! My Marchesa Bocella has only produced one bloom in the 2 years that I have been growing it. I have read that it is slow to get going... Mine was received as band, is only about 14" and the size of a one gallon plant...so kind of scrawny still.

Good of luck with yours, Lisa. :)

It makes me think of strawberry-infused whipped cream. What an absolutely perfect bloom. Now that it's begun, I hope you'll have many more.

Thanks, Desertgarden and Ingrid. I hope I get lots more, too. The foliage is so perfect on her, a lovely light green, unlike most of my others. I think I will cut this one for my nightstand, and see how it does. It has already been open for about 4 days on the bush. Lisa

Beautiful rose - beautiful photo! Looks delicate, but I think she's pretty tough. I had one 20 years ago in zone 10, purchased as Jacques Cartier, now have 2 by the name Marchesa Boccella. Both are wonderful sounding names, but I love saying Marchesa Boccella!

I think I read somewhere (on this forum, I think) that 'JC' and 'MB' in commerce are the same except for plant size. One variety ('MB'?) stays fairly compact, while the other grows larger ('JC'?). Can anyone verify or demolish this notion?

Regardless, your rose looks pretty dreamy, Lisa.

Virginia

I've been trying to find out more about 'JC' and 'MB', and still can't find a fully satisfactory answer. While it is said that they are the same in commerce, sold as JC in Europe and Canada (mostly), and as MB in USA, historically Marchesa Boccella was recorded in 1842 while Jacque Cartier in 1868, and each listed as originating from a different breeder. English writers and rosarians like Thomas and Beales had doubts about the provenance of Marchesa Boccella and would only accept Jacque Cartier to be the 'original'. I always thought that this was rather harsh because only MB was mentioned in historical sources up to 1868... I bought mine as Marchesa Boccella from ARE and it didn't take long to get it going. I had a couple of blooms in the first year, but afterwards she has bloomed prolifically (once in spring, I do pamper her with alfalfa & bonemeal).

In his Old Rose Advisor, Dickerson describes Marchesa as more compact than JC but I've seen different descriptions of their size which probably depends on where they are grown.

Beautiful. My first blooms were wonky so ready for some that look like yours.

Gorgeous! I love MB/JC. Carol

Thanks all. She is really pretty, my loveliest foliage by far at the moment. Mine was purchased as a band from Heirloom Roses. I find it odd that Heirloom doesn't even mention MB under "alternate names", in their additional info section for Jacque Cartier. Did any of you purchase a Jacque Cartier from Heirloom Roses? I'm curious as to the mature size of the one they carry. Lisa

I received my plant from Burlington, Lisa. She carries Jacques Cartier and Marchesa Boccella. FWIW, when I inquired regarding the differences, I was told that " they look the same, and the only difference she can tell is that her stock plant of Jacques Cartier does not become as large as Marchesa Boccella.

Beautiful bloom, Lisa! I purchased one from Heirloom (JC) another from ARE (MB) and grew them side by side. They were identical in every way. I think it's wise to grow this one in part sun or morning sun only. The blooms just wither in the afternoon sun.

Desertgarden, I bought Burlington's Jacques Cartier, so we can compare notes! Mine is about 3 ft tall in its second year in the ground. I cut it back by about 1/3 this winter and it's made a really nice stout shrub

Wow that's such a perfect bloom. My Jacques Cartier is in full sun and the blooms are fine and last quite a while but I don't get the nuances in colour like yours. Mine are just always a flat pink. I love the flushed look of yours!

Wow that's beautiful! I hope mine does so well! Lisa

My Marchesa Boccella is finally in full bloom. This time she's spreading more than usual, about 5 feet, probably because our mild winter allowed me not to prune too much and let her take her own personality.

Oh yours is lovely, vesfl. Mine has so far graced me with just two perfect blooms. I'm hoping for more, but it has just become very hot here. Lisa

I planted this rose last year, and it did produce a few blooms, but I haven’t gotten a good idea of their beauty yet. Mine is probably about three feet tall right now and narrow, it has quite a few buds at this time and I’m anxious to see the blooms. I hope they’re as lovely as the ones shown here.

Mine's still a baby, in its basinette from ARE. It opened a few blooms this week but between the rain and possibly thrips, they don't look so good. But it smell divine!!

Also a baby. I believe mine came from either RVR or Heirloom as Jacques Cartier. It's in its 2nd year in my potted nursery. Carol

Beautiful, Carol! Mine came from Heirloom and my bloom pictures look exactly like yours. I’m not sure mine will be blooming this year. My “helper” shoved her barrel out of the way, and into deeper shade. She is however, reaching over the fence now, so that might be enough.

BTW, I grew tired of waiting for Javier to return, and also worried about what sort of further damage he might do when he did. My son was here on his day off, and had a look at the half installed drip system. He remarked that if he’d known it was such a simple system, he’d have finished it himself long ago! We got the remaining supplies and he had it finished in a couple hours. And the best part, no plants were harmed in the process, not a single one! I can finally start putting plants back, now:). Lisa

So glad that job is done, Lisa. I could not stand Javier's "help". I'm sure your plants will be grateful.

Lisa, I am so relieved that your son finished the job. You have enough on your plate without watering stress and unfinished projects hanging in half completion! I hope my daughter is reading over my shoulder. When she's older, I WILL be soliciting garden chore assistance. :-)

For the record, my Jacques C came from RVR. It is young but healthy and free flowering. It does look identical to yours which is something of a verification of both Heirloom's and RVR's plant IDs.

I also have a mystery rose from Heirloom which has identical or nearly identical flowers to JC. It only blooms once, though, and unlike JC, its canes shoot straight up and then arch in a cascade of flowers. Very fragrant and seems to smell a lot like JC. Puzzling!

Carol

Thank you, both. I’m super happy that job is done! I did start my kids very early helping in the garden. Pulling weeds, was often on their Saturday chore list. It was never a very popular one:) My daughter still calls talks about it being the most dreaded chore to show up on the Saturday list.

Carol, what was your “mystery rose” from Heirloom supposed to be? Any pictures? It sounds interesting and lovely. Lisa

Ispahan? That sounds like mine from RVRs. Spring bloomer, lovely, arching.

That's beautiful, Sheila, and a good guess, but I've grown Ispahan, and the mystery is definitely something else. What is it? Not a clue!

Lisa, I posted the mystery once on the forum, and I think other members were equally stumped. The blooms really do look identical to JC, but the plant doesn't behave the way my JCs have behaved. It will not bloom at all if hard pruned, so I let it shoot for the roof and then drape and tie down the canes, kind of like casually pegging. It is blooming right now but is non remontant. I'm going to grow my new JC into a more mature plant and compare the two, and then I will post again someday. Whatever the mystery is, it's as delicious as JC! Carol

That IS beautiful, Sheila. I’ll bet it smells wonderful, too.

Carol, don’t you think “mysterious” roses are kind of fun? They’re not of course, when you’re expecting a particular rose, and then it turns out to be something “common” or unsuitable for your garden. But, I like a good mystery rose!

BTW, I was wrong about my MB being in too much shade to bloom this year. I went to set the hose in her barrel this evening while it was still light, and counted 15 buds! Apparently, she can handle quite a bit of shade. I’m glad you brought this old thread back up. I’ve been preoccupied and not very observant for the past few weeks. It hasn’t been very warm here lately, so I’ve just occasionally set the hose in her barrel for a bit after dark. I needed this thread to remind me to go out to her corner today and take a close look at her. Thank you! She’s doing way better than I expected there. I guess I’ll have some bloom pictures to share soon. Lisa

Last year my MB got no care at all, so it was a pleasure to go look at her this spring and find her with arching growth and a good flowering. She's a cutting grown plant, planted in a line with two other home-rooted Hybrid Damasks: 'Enfant de France', upright and Portlandish in habit, and 'Reine des Violettes', which was a puny baby when last seen and has now gotten up to three feet or so, a great improvement. The first two need some old growth cut out, but the cane girdler-damaged canes are still supporting foliage and blooms, so it can wait. EdF, which I don't hear much about on the forum, would be glorious if her blooms weren't such a favorite of the beetles; she has particularly beautiful young foliage, soft yellowish green. All three are good tough varieties. Further down the bed is a grafted RdV, doing well enough, and an 'Ispahan' that's getting huge. The literature I've read on the once-blooming old roses doesn't seem to me to convey how massive these roses can get. Not just the Albas--the fourteen year old 'Maiden's Blush' is starting to take over acreage--but Gallicas can get to be ponderous creatures. 'Agathe Rose', after years as a moderate shrub, is overwhelming her neighbors on the escarpment, and 'De la Maitre-Ecole', which did get pruned last winter, is over five feet high at the beginning of her flowering. I don't know how much of this is due to neglect--no pruning--and how much to the roses' being where they're really adapted: R. gallica, dog roses, and R. arvensis, ancestor of the Ayrshires, grow wild locally.

It all sounds so lovely, Melissa. I saw ‘Enfante de France’ offered this spring from High Country Roses. I was enchanted by it! It’s such a delicate “baby girl’ looking rose. I didn’t order it, or anything else, but I enjoyed researching EdF, and dreaming!

Since it is gray and drizzling this morning, it’s a good day to take a picture. Here is mine. I need a big strong son to come over and straighten out her barrel. Lisa

I’m so surprised to see all the buds!

Lisa, Enfant de France is dreamy. I like it almost as much as MB. It doesn't repeat quite as quickly, but EdF's blooms are bit larger and have those dark centers surrounded by a ring of pale pink petals that get me every time. Great scent, healthy leaves (some powdery mildew in my garden at the moment but not terrible) and such a nice rounded shrub shape. It's really a pleasure to prune and watch grow.

At Roseraie de l'Haÿ, I saw EdF trained as a low border along the edge of a path. It was charming like that, too, and covered in bloom when I saw it (timing, I'm sure, is everything). I don't know how they managed to do that, but it made a lasting impression.

It's gratifying to see Enfant de France discussed here. I've never seen it on any of the forums before. Mine didn't make it through a tough winter, and I miss it. Love John's description of the blooms and they truly are charming. There is something precious about it. A rose that is, in my opinion, aptly named.

I will tackle my Marchesa Boccella bushes today. I didn't get them pruned, and need to get down inside to remove some dead canes. Not pruning didn't seem to bother them at all. I grew Jacques Cartier from Roses of Yesterday and Today in So. Cal and Marchesa here and there is a difference. JC was smaller and my MBs are upright. No difference in the blooms, though.

Flowers, how tall are your MB's and how do they compare to your JC? Do your MB's grow straight up in a narrow vase? How is remontancy? Disease resistance? Where did your MBs come from? Apologies for all the questions!

And so sorry to sidetrack your thread, Lisa. I'm just so curious about th differences reported between MB and JC. ARE they two different roses and what is what? Carol

P.S. Lisa, look at all those buds! Carol

Beautiful pics of one of my favorite roses!

Carol, no apologies needed! My MBs are own root, 4 yrs old, from Northland. They are about 3 1/2' tall and 2 1/2' wide. They're more straight up and down than vase shape - so far. I planted 2 close together to appear as one fuller bush, but wish I hadn't done that. They are putting on a lot more height this year, so may end up 4 1/2' tall or more. I get good repeat, but not continual bloom, and the fragrance is strong and wonderful! I've never seen any black spot or powdery mildew or any other disease on them. It helps that it is dry here.

I no longer grow JC. The one I had was years ago in So. Cal. and it was own root/bare root and it grew short and wide. It came from Roses of Yesterday and Today. As I recall, it was fragrant and I didn't have any disease problems with it. I don't remember enough to compare repeat bloom with MB. Roses of Yesterday... was very nice to deal with when I used to order from them. I think they have had some set backs over the years that were out of their control.

I really don't know the story behind these two roses and how they came to be one. It is my understanding that they can only be sold under the name MB in the US.

Thank you, Flowers! I appreciate your detailed response. In the past there has been speculation that a couple of roses may be going around by these names, and I am considering asking friends in the area to try plants from different sources while I do the same in order to see if some are more remontant, disease resistant, etc. Carol

Carol, I tend to think of them as the same rose, but my JC from Burlington Roses does want to be more wide than tall, and it blooms without pause (no real flush - it is just always blooming during the summer). So maybe there are similar but slightly different roses being sold under these names?

Here are some photos I took just now of my JC from Burlington Roses. I prune it back fairly hard in winter, since it can get a little floppy otherwise. And if it does flop during the growing season, I chop it back ruthlessly. Nevertheless, it blooms all summer non-stop...maybe in hopes some kind passerby will take it home and give it kinder treatment!

Beautiful, John! My former JCs bloomed in flushes, I believe. They were Heirloom plants like Lisa's. We'll see what my current RVR JC does, and hopefully Lisa and others will continue to share. I wonder if our warmer PDX temps produce more and continuous flowers. Carol

It's wonderful to see this thread revived and I enjoy everyone's photos. Whether it's grown as MB or JC, it's so lovely.

My MB is the first rose I planted when we bought this house and still dearest to my heart. Like flowers, I have it for 4 years. By now, it's about 4 1/2-5 feet tall and wide, only slightly wider than its height. Mine is from ARE and they sell it as Marchesa Boccella. Gorgeous fragrance, a reliable rebloomer, and the blooms have exquisite shape and color. It blooms profusely in the first flush and then about 2-3 times repeatedly again until the fall. The blooms are abundant in the second flush too, just somewhat smaller than the first time in the season. It's very hardy too. We had a rough winter with endless returning frost nearly through May this year and it was almost completely unfazed. I hardly had to prune out any damaged tips.

Flowers, here are some photos of Enfant de France that I just took, too... powdery mildew and all! I'm sorry to hear you lost it to a cold winter - I agree it has a unique charm. The first time I smelled it, I I thought of my grandmother, and now I always associate it with her memory.

The powdery mildew seems to be worse this year, but it's been dry recently with cool evening temperatures, and I haven't been irrigating, yet. I'm sure it will clear up as the nights get warmer and the roots get regular watering from the drip irrigation.

This was purchased as from Heirloom as 'Spencer', a label even the current owner still refuses to correct. I left a glowing review of the rose on their website but pointed out that it was really EdF. They never posted the review and continue to call it 'Spencer' with a description that describes 'Spencer', not EdF. I guess it's no wonder these rose name mysteries occur and persist!

Ooooh, John, these are wonderful. That last photo! Besides all the blooms, it's still covered in buds. Mine was never this large or floriferous. Those blooms bring back just how beautiful it is. I bet your grandmother would be pleased to know this rose brings back memories of her.

Not being familiar with Spencer, I looked it up and there are so many different bloom forms on the same HMF page. Someone has gotten things in a mess, it seems. Heirloom should have been grateful for your information and taken action to correct their description. At least they could have assured you they would look into it.

Thank you so much for posting the photos and bringing back memories of this sweet smelling, delicately beautiful rose for me. I'm going to have to find one again.

Flowers, if you're unable to find one, let me know and I can try to propagate mine this year.

It really does bloom its heart out. When it was younger, it didn't have the strength to open all of the buds it set, so about 1/3 of them would dry up, but these days most do open and I get a few flushes each season. After each flush I trim it back by about 1/3 like I do with my damask perpetual roses. Even though it's a hybrid perpetual, it seems to appreciate this treatment.

Lisa, here's my 10-12 feet tall Not JC. Eerily similar, yes? Carol

I will forever be humbled at how kind hearted gardeners are. John, thank you for offering a cutting of your Enfant de France. Gardeners are the nicest people on the planet. I am sure of it. I will let you know if I can't find it locally. I'm almost certain Northland has it in their display garden. That is where I bought my original one. Many thanks for your thoughtfulness. Now that you mention it, all the buds on mine wouldn't open either. It never grew to maturity.

Portlandmysteryrose, that is one incredible, beautiful rose. Ten to 12 feet of those blooms must be something to behold.