Does anyone grow true Ravenea moorei?

[Bill Baker (Kew)]

Long post alert!! Please persevere...!

We have a fabulous male Ravenea moorei in the Palm House at Kew, but we fear that it is the only individual alive in cultivation. It is also possible that the species is extinct in the wild. We are currently planning a major restoration and our R. moorei will be dug up and moved – risky business. While we make plans to do this, we are anxious to understand the broader situation with this species, both in the wild in the Comoro Islands and in cultivation. This is where PalmTalk comes in!

Does anyone believe that they grow Ravenea moorei? It has been confused in cultivation with R. hildebrandtii. See photos below. The two species are distinguished easily by their stature. Ravenea moorei has stems reaching 20 m tall and 11-35 cm diameter, and leaves up to 3 m in length – it resembles a coconut (ok, not to an expert, but you get my drift). In contrast, Ravenea hildebrandtii is a dwarf palm with stems usually less than 4 m tall (rarely up to 12 m) and 4­-6 cm diameter, and leaves reaching 1.5 m in length. To confuse the situation a potential third species (Ravenea aff. hildebrandtii) is known from cultivation in Hawaii, probably originating from Mayotte. Some have speculated that this is also R. moorei (see interesting thread here) but the jury’s out on that so far. Still it would be great to see how the young “Mayotte” palms pictured in that thread turned out.

Status in cultivation (as we understand it): Two introductions of seed to cultivation have been reported. Harold E. Moore Jr. collected a large quantity of seed of R. moorei (from the type collection) which was distributed via the International Palm Society's Seed Bank (as R. hildebrandtii, sowing initial confusion). We know of specimens from that introduction at Fairchild Tropical Botanic Garden and RBG Edinburgh that have died, but do any survive in private collections? DeArmand Hull also introduced seed in 1993, but the status of surviving progeny is not known (Dransfield & Beentje 1995).

How can you help? If you think you grow a true Ravenea moorei please post images in this thread, along with any relevant information you have about its origins. Remember, we’re looking for big, coconut-like palms, not the dwarf ones. We really hope that the real thing is lurking out there somewhere! Any living palms in cultivation are likely to be of major conservation significance.

Thanks in advance! 

Bill Baker

Image 1: Ravenea moorei (Photo: Will Spoelstra)

 

Image 2: Ravenea hildebrandtii (Photo: John Dransfield)

[Tyrone]

Bill, I’ve seen that one in the Palmhouse in Kew and it’s magnificent.

I hope the heat in London the last couple of days didn’t cook the palmhouse. Quite a risk moving that specimen.

I hope we find some in cultivation or even better still in habitat. Sorry that I can’t help you with your enquiry though. I’ve seen none in Australia myself. There may be some lurking in private collections in north Queensland somewhere. 

[Bill Baker (Kew)]

On 7/20/2022 at 11:39 PM, Tyrone said:

Bill, I’ve seen that one in the Palmhouse in Kew and it’s magnificent.

I hope the heat in London the last couple of days didn’t cook the palmhouse. Quite a risk moving that specimen.

I hope we find some in cultivation or even better still in habitat. Sorry that I can’t help you with your enquiry though. I’ve seen none in Australia myself. There may be some lurking in private collections in north Queensland somewhere. 

Thanks Tyrone - it is a truly spectacular specimen. I'm wondering how it coped with the 40 degree heat on Tuesday - that was the outside temp, but the upstairs gallery of the palm house is really very warm. No one's taking the bait on this yet, so perhaps there really is no "true" R. moorei out there. Even if that is the outcome, it's still important to know that.

[Looking Glass]

If you search the forum, only a handful of references to the great looking palm come up.    

Seems like a tough one to find, or even identify correctly sometimes. 

Edited July 22, 2022 by Looking Glass

[ZPalms]

Very beautiful palm, hope another is out there!

[spike]

Out of curiosity I took a look at the palmpedia page, and there seems to be a few pictures of it in cultivation. hopefully there will be some more. 

[Tracy]

28 minutes ago, spike said:

Out of curiosity I took a look at the palmpedia page, and there seems to be a few pictures of it in cultivation. hopefully there will be some more. 

https://palmpedia.net/wiki/Ravenea_moorei

Good suggestion to look there, but it appears many were photos of the one labeled as R moorei in Ralph Velez's garden, the JD Anderson one in Hawaii, Nong Nooch and one in "So Cal" with no details on where.  I won't speculate as to whether the photos other than the habitat specimens or the Kew's in the Palmpedia gallery are in fact Ravenea moorei; we have a specialist to evaluate.  Perhaps someone near Ralph's old home can provide an updated photos for Bill Baker so he can assess if the id on it was accurate.

[Max974]

The seed of this one comes directly from the Comoros Archipelago, with the name of Ravenea moorei. What do you think?

[Bill Baker (Kew)]

Hi Folks - Thank you for all the input so far. Please keep it coming! I'll be away and offline for most of August, but will return to synthesise findings from your feedback after that. 

Initial thoughts: I guess the headline is that I've seen nothing yet that is definitely Ravenea moorei. Or at least nothing that is an unequivocal match for the palm at Kew. I think an incomplete view of the taxonomy is an obstacle here. I am actively discussing this with John Dransfield and plan to do some further herbarium work on the specimens that we have here at Kew, but it seems likely to me that our understanding of how many Ravenea species exist in the Comoros may be incomplete, and indeed there may be problems with species boundaries. The palm shared by Max974 is a good case in point - it doesn't look like Ravenea moorei, but it's hard to say for sure if it R. hildebrandtii or the aff. hildebrandtii thing from Mayotte. 

So - a work in progress for now. But please don't stop sharing your ideas!

Thanks, Bill  

[Bill Baker (Kew)]

Hi folks - for those still interested in this thread, I have been doing some homework in the Kew herbarium, which has ~20 specimens of Ravenea hildebrandtii and just 3 wild source specimens of R. moorei. I am now pretty confident that all the images I have seen of cultivated palms are R. hildebrandtii. This species can be quite robust at times (to 6 m tall, stems to 15 cm diameter), but moorei is much bigger (ca. 20 m, stems 25-30 cm diam.) In male flower, they can look a bit similar, but in female flower hildebrandtii is striking by the inflorescences that sticks out of the crown with a short length of branches on the end of a long peduncle. In R. moorei, the female inflorescence arches out among the petioles. 

There is one image on Palmpedia which intrigues me, but the info is minimal - if anyone knows anything about this specimen, please shout!

 

https://www.palmpedia.net/wiki/images/d/da/Ravenea_moorei_001.jpg

[Tyrone]

I’m still interested in this topic. That picture may be a habitat pic. 

Keep us updated with what you find and any thoughts.

Sorry I can’t help you though. 

[Tyrone]

On 7/24/2022 at 8:23 PM, Max974 said:

The seed of this one comes directly from the Comoros Archipelago, with the name of Ravenea moorei. What do you think?

Hi Bill and Max,

I photographed this same palm in Reunion a couple of weeks ago at the Palm Park in Le Tampon and was super excited to find what was labeled as Ravenea moorei, and was hoping for it to be the real one. I guess it's not then. 🙁It's a beautiful palm though. @Bill Baker (Kew)are you totally sure this is not R moorei? It's actually quite a large plant and although I've never seen a R hillebrandii in real life, this seems very robust compared to the pictures Ive seen for R hillebrandii. The pictures make it look smaller than it really is. 

This palm appears to be a male. It is a real shame that many dioecious palms are planted as single specimens. With Ravenea species I like to plant a minimum of 5 in a group if I can, just in case one day they flower and hopefully a male and a female flower at the right time to produce seed. I think for large botanic gardens that should be an absolute minimum requirement for palm conservation. Mass plant rare dioecious palm species, like they would occur in nature for a dramatic effect and seed production. 

[Max974]

On 28/03/2023 at 11:17, Tyrone said:

Salut Bill et Max,

Ce palmier semble être un mâle. 

 

Hello, It is indeed a male.

[hbernstein]

Anyone know if the Kew plant was successfully moved? Have any additional cultivated individuals been found?

 

[Bill Baker (Kew)]

On 3/20/2024 at 1:16 PM, hbernstein said:

Anyone know if the Kew plant was successfully moved? Have any additional cultivated individuals been found?

 

The palm at Kew is still in the same spot. No credible cultivated plants came to light, sadly. 

[Yort]

There are some photos added to Naturalist from Comoro islands recently

[redbeard917]

Is it known whether the Kew specimen (which is spectacular) is male or female?

[bruce Steele]

“We have a fabulous male Ravenea moorei in the Palm House at Kew, but we fear that it is the only individual alive in cultivation”

First sentence of this thread.  
Kinda a sad thing to see such a beautiful palm passing into extinction. Good to see the effort trying to save the palm and maybe find it a girlfriend. 
Thanks to those involved. 

[happypalms]

On 7/21/2022 at 3:53 AM, Bill Baker (Kew) said:

Long post alert!! Please persevere...!

We have a fabulous male Ravenea moorei in the Palm House at Kew, but we fear that it is the only individual alive in cultivation. It is also possible that the species is extinct in the wild. We are currently planning a major restoration and our R. moorei will be dug up and moved – risky business. While we make plans to do this, we are anxious to understand the broader situation with this species, both in the wild in the Comoro Islands and in cultivation. This is where PalmTalk comes in!

Does anyone believe that they grow Ravenea moorei? It has been confused in cultivation with R. hildebrandtii. See photos below. The two species are distinguished easily by their stature. Ravenea moorei has stems reaching 20 m tall and 11-35 cm diameter, and leaves up to 3 m in length – it resembles a coconut (ok, not to an expert, but you get my drift). In contrast, Ravenea hildebrandtii is a dwarf palm with stems usually less than 4 m tall (rarely up to 12 m) and 4­-6 cm diameter, and leaves reaching 1.5 m in length. To confuse the situation a potential third species (Ravenea aff. hildebrandtii) is known from cultivation in Hawaii, probably originating from Mayotte. Some have speculated that this is also R. moorei (see interesting thread here) but the jury’s out on that so far. Still it would be great to see how the young “Mayotte” palms pictured in that thread turned out.

Status in cultivation (as we understand it): Two introductions of seed to cultivation have been reported. Harold E. Moore Jr. collected a large quantity of seed of R. moorei (from the type collection) which was distributed via the International Palm Society's Seed Bank (as R. hildebrandtii, sowing initial confusion). We know of specimens from that introduction at Fairchild Tropical Botanic Garden and RBG Edinburgh that have died, but do any survive in private collections? DeArmand Hull also introduced seed in 1993, but the status of surviving progeny is not known (Dransfield & Beentje 1995).

How can you help? If you think you grow a true Ravenea moorei please post images in this thread, along with any relevant information you have about its origins. Remember, we’re looking for big, coconut-like palms, not the dwarf ones. We really hope that the real thing is lurking out there somewhere! Any living palms in cultivation are likely to be of major conservation significance.

Thanks in advance! 

Bill Baker

Image 1: Ravenea moorei (Photo: Will Spoelstra)

 

Image 2: Ravenea hildebrandtii (Photo: John Dransfield)

Hi bill you could try contacting rosebud farm in Kuranda near cairns Rich trapnell has passed on (rip) but his son Nate may be able to help Rich was a big importer of seeds into Australia from Madagascar and well known and respected in the palm industry they have a website rosebudfarm.com if not try Rohan at troppo propagation a email at troppopropagation@outlook.com he was Rich trapnells main propagater and still has a online palm seed,plant business I hope this is of some help a definite link to the Madagascar seed imports into Australia in the mid to late 1990 good luck 

regards

Richard